Xbox Series X Discussion

Gordon

Engine guys from id seem unhappy with Series S.

Brave

Well that sucks

Fumanstu

I dunno, I work with coders, this is exactly the type of shit they like to have a moan about before getting on with it and it turns into a non-issue. 😃

Gordon

As a coder, I resent that comment despite it being somewhat accurate!

Fumanstu

Gordon I’m a pretend coder that writes code to test code. So I knew full well that it would generate an ‘Oi!’ immediately followed by ‘But I concede your point.’ 😃

Brave

Having been the sole designer in a team of 300 coders ( 😢 ).

I also can testify to the accuracy of this statement. =P

“Oh we can’t do it. Our code is like spaghetti. We’d have to unravel it all.”

Next day, job’s a good ’un.

DrDamn

I suspect the reality is there is a middle ground between the “OMG it’s going to be a nightmare!” and the “You just tick the XSS toggle and rebuild!”. There is a lot of nuance under the theory of what it should need and what it’s helpful to have. There are a fair number of good points in the comments from Devs and it’s not something any of then want, but if it sells a load then it will be supported.

If nothing else it’s an extra complication to an already complex business of game development. It shouldn’t hold back next-gen development because it can do everything XSX can just at a lower graphical fidelity, but it will have some impact, and potentially some on XSX too. If you develop a game for XSS/XSX then the easiest way to ensure support for XSS is going to be to not push the boundaries of XSX isn’t it?

Fumanstu

No, I don’t think there’s any reason to think that’s how it’ll be. This isn’t a new problem, at least not in PC land, game devs have usually targeted the higher end of the market and then you cut down from there, not the other way round. I think it’s easier than ever and crucially more understood (both within the devs and the gamers) to enable and disable graphical options without affecting the core experience (Nioh is a great example of this). I’m pretty sure that a defacto set of marketable options will be established that will be applied as standard. Clearly resolution drops will be one, I suspect texture and asset quality will be another and others will probably be more subtle.

DrDamn

@Fumanstu

Axel Gneiting is a Principal engine programmer at id Software.

Brave

I mean. As a layman in terms of coding, but a 30 year professional in terms of creating “assets”. Making, lets say images (although it applies to sound as well), at various levels of resolution has always been relatively trivial, and these days is a largely automated task.

So the practice of using only the bare minimum, lowest common denominator assets even for the highest spec seems like utter madness to me.

I have a hard time imagining that’s industry standard practice.

And if it is, I’m just going to sit here and shake my head. Edit: and wonder what the hell games have been doing using up my download bandwidth for the last decade.

Brave

And the other thing here is nobody knows how effective the ai upscaling is going to be. That could theoretically make up for shortfall.

My experience with DLSS on rtx cards is that the tech is feckin mind-blowing.

DrDamn

Brave And the other thing here is nobody knows how effective the ai upscaling is going to be. That could theoretically make up for shortfall.

My experience with DLSS on rtx cards is that the tech is feckin mind-blowing.

AMD does have some tech in this area, but DLSS is not just software, it’s reliant on dedicated AI processors on RTX GPUs (tensor cores). So it’s whether there is a sufficient viable alternative in AMD GPU included in the XSS. There are plenty of alternatives like checkerboard and temporal injection though.

Fumanstu

Yes, that’s exactly my point - they’ve been doing this for years. He’s having a whinge while at the same time acknowledging that it’s not a problem. I mean it’s not like Doom looked rubbish. 😃

DrDamn

Fumanstu his point is that XSS is going to restrict what they target for the generation. It will be the base spec every game has to be accommodated into. At the start of the generation that won’t be such an issue, but mid to late gen when PC minimum specs out strip it then XSS support is more of a hinderance.

If you start at base spec XSS then add to get to XSX/PS5 the end result is different to if you started at XSX/PS5 and built around what they could achieve.

Gammerz

DrDamn Agree. I think the S model is a short-term stop-gap to get players on board and will eventually be phased out, like the old core model on the X360. So, in mid-gen, they will be fully able to target the X without being hamstrung by the S and have lots more invested players. The cause of this problem is the console being released at the start of a 4K TV revolution where many people still play on 1080. Also, by mid gen, 1080 TVs will be less popular and 4K more so.

Fumanstu

DrDamn I get the point he’s making, where I disagree is this:

If you develop a game for XSS/XSX then the easiest way to ensure support for XSS is going to be to not push the boundaries of XSX isn’t it?

You can still design and target pushing boundaries on XSX/PS5, if that’s what you want from your product, and can still have it run on the XSS. You just accept that performance will be less and other cuts might have to be made.

Or you can target the XSS and then get a ‘free’ performance boost on the other consoles, if that’s what you want to do.

I really don’t see how that is any different from any past generation, each project will be different. I don’t buy that XSS has to be the baseline.

DrDamn

Gammerz The cause of this problem is the console being released at the start of a 4K TV revolution where many people still play on 1080.

I think that helps their case, but it’s not the cause. MS has GamePass as it’s console. It still needs to appease the core fans with a powerful console (XSX) but it needs to have a relevant more mass market solution too - and this is where XSS comes in. As an idea I think it’s got merits, and it certainly fits MS plans, as someone who likes the excitement of new generations and what they bring I don’t. In order to meet the target price they have had to cut too much I think.

DrDamn

Fumanstu It doesn’t have to be, but for most I think it will be. MS mandate that any release on XSX has to also run on XSS. The easiest way to ensure your game runs on both is to start from the lowest and enhance for the more capable. That way you know it will run on XSS. Best case is bigger titles and first party where time will be given to optimise well and get the most from both systems. More commonly they will ensure it runs on both but isn’t as good as would have been if just one platform was the target. Worse case the minimum is done to get the game running on the XSS and neither console is exploited to the level they could be. Any time spent on supporting an additional platform is time taken away from the others and will also potentially result in de-scoping for some devs.

You could argue that it’s just similar to the current generation and X1->X1X or PS4->PS4Pro. In these cases the X1X/PS4Pro are meant to simply provided enhanced versions of the lower spec consoles - that was their purpose.

I started off when this was all rumoured somewhere closer to where you are. I.e. you can scale stuff down, reductions in resolution target and models will mean memory isn’t an issue, same _CPU and SSD will mean it’s just a point of adjusting effects/resolution etc. The amount of vocal developers on the issue has swung me though. Particularly concerns about memory. All games don’t scale the same way, and tight optimisations won’t always work across these systems. Yes there is going to be a lot of “it’s a pain in the ass” / “don’t want extra work” behind it, but there are legitimate points too.

DrDamn

As expected …

Jonbwfc

Wait that needs some disentangling and I’m struggling to get my head round it.

If you put an XBO game into an XSX, it will (somehow… dunno) run that game in an ‘enhanced backwards combat mode’ which mean it will actually look better than it does on the XBOX. Correct?

But you put that XBO game into an XSS, it will run that game effectively identically to a cut down XBOS, not the enhanced XBOX. So for XBO games, running the on an XSS will often give you a slightly worse experience than running them on what is pretty much now the default XBO. Correct?

So.. will the XSS/XSX version of cross gen games still look better on an XSS than the XBO version does on an XBOX? or would you actually be better running the XBO optimised version on the XBOX than the XSX version on the XSS? Or the XBO version on the XSS?

So effectively backwards compatibility on the XSS actually means playing games that are slightly worse than they would be on the previous generation XBOX, and if you are playing cross gen games on the XSS, you really need to be buying the XSX version. And if you already have the XBO version of a cross gen game and you then sell your XBOX to buy an XSS, well, sucks to be you?

Remind me again how having two different hardware configurations for two whole generations and the worst sodding naming convention in the history of humanity was a good idea…

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